Sunday, February 24, 2013


My grandmother had told me that there was a branch of our Pickholtz family who had been in Denver for many years. These would be descendants of my great-grandfather's sister. Nana remembered that some of them had visited in Pittsburgh, perhaps in the late 1940s. The surname she knew was Francis, but her recollection of the given names was less clear. Of course she had no idea who might be there today and what their names might be - or even if they were still in Denver. This was eighteen years ago.

When I began doing more serious research a few years later, the Denver family was high on my list of priorities. One of the easier aspects of Denver research is the single, longtime, family-owned and very cooperative funeral home, Feldman Mortuary. Once I reached them, they were able to give me grave locations and contact information for Sadie and Sam Francis, Sadie's brother Fred Francis and his wife Rose and Sadie's daughter Jennie Pells. As I learned later Sadie had married a cousin and both families changed their surname from Frankel to Francis, though the Polish version Franzos had also been used.  The two couples are buried together in Mt. Nebo Cemetery.

Sadie's daughter Jennie is buried in the same cemetery. The folks at Feldman told me that the contact person for her was someone named Buzy Hahn. I supposed this was Jennie's son or daughter. I found out soon enough.

I had recently been in contact with Joe, a librarian in Denver, about some matter of his Galician research and I asked him if he could help me find this Buzy. Joe seemed to think this was pretty funny. Turns out that Buzy - or more properly Betty Lee - never had to be "found." If it was Jewish and Denver, she was there.

My third cousin Buzy was born sixteen years before me and we bonded quickly. She told me all about the family. There were her grandmother Sadie and great-uncle Fred who lived in Denver and another brother Abraham Franzos who lived in upstate New York. The parents - Buzy's great-grandparents Bassie Pickholz and David Lozel Frankel/Franzos - were buried in Port Jervis NY.

And there were "Little Max" and "Poor Jake." That's how Buzy referred to them.

"Little Max" was Sadie and Sam's younger son. He was born in July 1903 and died eighteen months later.  He is buried in Rose Hill Cemetery in Commerce City Colorado. There is no marker.

"Poor Jake" was a younger brother of Sadie and Fred and he was the reason that the family went to Denver to begin with. He had tuberculosis - "consumption" they called it then.

Bassie and David Lozel Frankel had nine children. Eventually we found birth records for all but Abraham. Buzy had never heard of most of them, as they died in childhood. After the first two, Sarah (Sadie) and Eisig Fischel (Fred) there were Chancie (1876-1876), Jente Gittel (1876-1882), Buncie (b. 1886 - no sign of her later), Feige Rifke (1888-1889) and an unnamed son who died in 1890 at fifteen days. Readers of this blog will recognize the names of Eisig Fischel and Feige Rifke as our (Buzy's and my) great-great-grandparents

And there was "Poor Jake." Because of his illness, Sadie and Fred went to Denver. He died in 1904 in his twenty-sixth year and was buried in Rose Hill Cemetery, where he was joined less than a year later by "Little Max." They are the only family we have in that particular cemetery. "Poor Jake" too had no stone, but Buzy decided that this was unacceptable and she had one made soon after we first spoke.

So about ninety-seven years after his death - on 19 Adar 5664 - "Poor Jake" has a tombstone. His yahrzeit is this Friday.

Sadie was active in the community from the start and was one of the founders of Jewish Consumptives' Relief Society, the sanitorium for those who suffered like "Poor Jake" from tuberculosis. Her first cousin - the daughter of my great-grandfather's other sister - Mary Braun Augenblick also lived in Denver for a time and she too was active in JCRS.

Buzy herself - Basche Leah, for the two sisters Bassie Pickholz Franzos and Leah Pickholz Braun - was active in so many aspects of the community and this is not the place for a eulogy.

After we made contact, she became more involved in the wider family. She made a trip to Pittsburgh to see the family there and then continued on to see the family of her great-uncle Abraham Franzos in New York. She hosted some of my family who visited Denver. She visited Israel several times, becoming great friends with my mother. And we went to Galicia together.

Buzy and I under the Skalat sign
at the entrance to the town.
Back in those first days of my research, I had no idea where my own family was from. I knew my grandfather was born in Zalosce, but I was not at all sure if we belonged to the eastern Pikholz center in Skalat or the western group in Rozdol. But Buzy knew. She knew Skalat because her grandmother Sadie had been born there. And she wanted to go to see it, with me. So we did - together with Ephraim Pickholz of the Rozdol side.
Six years and two days after that trip, Buzy died, age seventy-four. I always call her "The Late Great Buzy Hahn" with only the greatest of respect. Her line is the sole surviving female line back to Rivka Feige Pikholz - perhaps we can get one of her children or one of her brothers to do a MtDNA test some day.

As I learned later, the four children of Isak Fischel and Rivka Feige Pikholz were probably born in Podkamen. Three of them, my great-grandfather, his sister Leah and the older brother Jachiel married people from nearby Zalosce and their children were born there. But Bassie married back in Skalat, where her parents had come from. And that is where her children were born. Sadie, Fred, Abraham, the ones who died and "Poor Jake."

There is now a tombstone for "Poor Jake" but that does not mitigate the use of his nickname. You see, a few months after Buzy put up the stone for Jacob Francis, Yaakov ben David Lozel, we found his birth record. This was before JRI-Poland began working with east Galician records and the search was sponsored by the Pikholz Project without the benefit of an index.
It's the one at the bottom of the page. He was born 19 August 1878 in house number 105 in Skalat and named on the eighth day in the synagogue. His parents are David Lozel Frankel of Skalat and Bassie Pickholz of Skalat, daughter of Eisig Fischel and Rifke Feige Pickholz of Podkamen.

But his given name is not Jacob / Yaakov. His name is Jachiel. The same as Bassie's brother.

So he has a tombstone, but with the wrong name. "Poor Jake" indeed.

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Family Tree DNA is having a brief sale on its Y-chromosome tests - $39 for a basic twelve marker test. I have suggested to several of Skalat Pikholz descendants that they take advantage of the opportunity to get into the system and confirm that our families are in the same ballpark.  This price is good until 28 February - that is, it has to be ordered by then. There is no rush to actually do the test and of course it can be upgraded later.

In the meantime, the first of the Rozdol Pikholz descendants has ordered a test, so we'll see in a couple of months if there is a possibility of a connection between the Skalat and Rozdol families.

Sunday, February 17, 2013


(An earlier version of this was published in The Galizianer, May 2009.)

I was really looking forward to the 27th Annual IAJGS Conference in 2007.  I had never been to Salt Lake City.  In fact, I had never done any research at any of the Mormons' Family History Centers, since their missionary work precludes their having any public facilities here in Israel.  So although I looked forward to my visit, I had no idea what to expect.  I accomplished much, both at the Conference and at the Family History Library, but my first discovery came from an entirely different type of source.

On Monday morning I attended a lecture by Beau Sharbrough about a new company called (since renamed  Fold3, with a specialization in US military records), which had acquired rights to film and make available records from the National Archives, among other sources.  The basic information on the website is available at no charge, but seeing the documents themselves requires either a paid subscription or a per-document payment.  During the Conference, we had free access.  The lecturer made much of the fact that in addition to standard documents such as naturalization papers and alien reporting, they would also be making available federal investigations that resulted from anything from organized labor to nosey neighbors.  Those investigations included not just the charges, but the responses, documentation and references provided by the accused.
We are still seeking definitive proof that
Aryeh Leib is the son of Mordecai.
I did a search on the various spellings of Pikholz and found an eleven page file for Sam (originally Schneier), the son of Szama Pikholz and Minnie Fried from Budzanow.  Sam was almost certainly a third cousin of my father, though thirty-odd years older. (None of our Pittsburgh seemed to be aware of a cousin not far away.)

It seems that in 1917, while Sam was living in Erie PA, one Capt. C.F. Rodgers of the American Protective League in Ashtabula Ohio charged that Sam was a draft dodger.  Sam was arrested and upon interrogation related parts of his personal and family history, including the claim that he was too old for the draft. 

From the report:
The Agent questioned Pickholtz closely, and he stated he was born in Austria, March 15, 1886.  He came here with his father when he was 12 years old.  His father died when he was 14 years old.  His father had been in this Country six (6) years before he went back to bring the children, and Pickholtz stated that his father was a naturalized citizen…

As part of his defense and in the presence of the investigators, Sam attempted to join both the army and the navy, but was rejected.  The agent determined that Sam had voted in June 1917 and “gave his age then as 31 years and 4 months.”  Despite the fact that Sam's defense was not based on any documentation, he was released from custody.

Rodgers had Sam arrested a second time on the same charge, but through the investigative office in Erie PA.  This second investigation revolved around a birth date of March 15, 1888 that appeared on Sam's application to join the Elks Club, a date which Sam himself claimed was false.  Rodgers also claimed that in an application for an insurance policy, Sam gave his birth date as March 15, 1889, supposedly supported by a birth certificate. 

In the course of the investigation, Rodgers wrote to his APL superior saying that if the local investigator did not act as Rodgers thought he should, he (Rodgers) would "take the matter up with …the U.S. Attorney at (sic) Pittsburgh, who is an old personal friend."  Rodgers closed by saying "I hear that rich Jewish influence is being brought to bear in this case…"  This theme appears in several subsequent letters from Rodgers.

Eventually the case was closed and Rodgers was criticized from all quarters, with recommendations that his commission be terminated.  They also determined that Sam was ineligible for service in the US Army, as he was an "Austrian Alien Enemy."

The final document includes this interesting observation:

Subject stated that his parents were dead and that he had no way of obtaining a birth certificate

Much of Sam's defense was based on claims which could not be proven one way or another, for lack of documentation.  But some can be proven – or rather disproven - by what we know now.
Sam’s mother Minnie died in New Jersey on 9 May 1938, so the statement about both his parents’ being dead was absolutely false. (She entered the US in 1921, after the case was closed.)
We have no indication that Sam’s father, Szama (sometimes Schama), was ever in the US, much less became a citizen.
Sam arrived in the US 25 January 1906 and gave his age as 17, so the 1888-89 birth dates look right.  He did not travel with his father and by no account was he twelve years old.

On his marriage license application (1919) he says he was thirty-one.

The 1920 census says he is thirty-one, but it also says (incorrectly) that he entered the US in 1902. 
On his SS-5, he says he was born March 15, 1888.

The Erie funeral home says he was born March 15, 1890.  (The birth date on his brother’s NJ death certificate is March 11, 1889.)
This is the actual birth record of Schneier / Sam. He was born 18 March 1889.
This is the birth record of Sam's brother Uscher (Harry), who lived in New Jersey. He was born 20 March 1885.
So unless Sam and his brother Harry had actually exchanged identities, it seems that Captain Rodgers was on to something. Here he speaks at length. (The arrow is mine.)

Sunday, February 10, 2013


The month of Adar is upon us. Here is last year's discussion of some of our Adar yahrzeits, including my paternal grandfather and my Uncle George.
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I opened this discussion on acquiring every available record two weeks ago with examples from east Galician records in the archives in Warsaw. I continue this week, discussing American records.

There is some debate about the source of the name Pikholz. "Holz" is German for "wood" and as a result, those Pikholz who changed their names here in Israel took names that are based on words for tree - Etzion, Etzioni, Ilan, Allon etc.

There are two main schools of thought on the name Pikholz - one that it means "woodpecker" and one that it means "gatherer of wood" or some other wood-related occupation. On occasion I wondered if people moving from easten Europe to western Europe may have adopted a translation into another European language. In particular, I wondered if anyone going to Vienna or Germany had adopted the name Specht, which means "woodpecker" in German. I even joined a genealogy discussion list for the surname Specht, but everyone there has thusfar been totally Gentile.

So imagine my surprise when this showed up in my inbox in June 2007.
I recently came across your name on a Jewish Geneology website and I thought you might be able to help me. My grandmother's parents immigrated to the U.S. from the shtetl of Skalat in what was then considered Southeastern Poland, presentday Ukraine. I have been trying to locate some information on our family's history, and I was wondering if you could offer some suggestions on resources or tools for conducting the search. From my knowledge, my grandmother's father was Charles Specht from Skalat and he came to the Bronx NY during the 1910s. I was wondering if you had any info or records on his family. I am interested in connecting with my past. I could find out some more info for you if you need any. Thanks a lot and I look forward to hearing from you. David.
A Jewish Specht. From Skalat, no less, where our family comes from. I had a look at the Italian Genealogy Group marriage index (using Steve Morse's One-Step search utility) and found six Charles Specht who married in new York after 1910. One of those married a woman named Nettie Degen in 1914. David confirmed that this was the correct couple and added that they were second cousins.

There are Degens in Skalat records. We have a Degen-Pikholz couple from Skalat who had three sons in the 1870s. Maybe more, for all I know. So this whole line of inquiry suddenly looked very promising.

I found the 1891 birth of a Nechy Degen in Skalat, but the only Spechts in the area were in the Lwow/Przemysl area. I began to suspect that the connection to Skalat was only through the Degens and that the Specht-Pikholz-woodpecker axis was non-existent. Nettie's parents were Selig Degen and Chaje Perlmutter, neither of whom I recognized, but in theory Selig could have been an older son of the Degen-Pikholz couple.

David knew that his great-grandfather Charles had four brothers in New York - Louis, Harry, Jacob and Aaron, but he knew almost nothing about them. David's grandmother was not helpful. She wrote: 
Thank you for the information about my mother and father: Nettie Degen and Charles Specht.
Unfortunately, we never discussed their life in Skalat. I think it was nothing they wished to remember. My interest is purely curiousity. ... I have no wish to become involved with possible distant relations.
I had a brother and sister, many first cousins, all of whom are now deceased. I was the youngest. Their children, my children's generation, are now in their 60's and the grandchildren are not particularly interested.
My parents left Skalat to come to America to become Americans. We were Jews without religious connections. After the holocaust it was clear that Jews needed a safe haven, so Israel seemed a logical solution. IT must be a very hard life.
I wish you well and all the best.
And a few days later she wrote:
I have already told you all that I know about my family's connection to Skalat. I know of no other names than the legal names they had here in the USA. There is nothing to be gained by pursueing this matter any further. Goodbye.
Well, that certainly sounded final.

But I did want to see where the Spechts came from. I was going to the IAJGS Conference on Jewish Genealogy in Salt Lake City a few weeks later, so I figured it would be easy enough to check the marriage certificates in the library there. I had found the certificate numbers through Steve Morse's site and the Italian database and I had also asked some New York friends to see if we could find any of the graves.

These two grave photos arrived the Thursday I landed in Salt Lake City.

Nettie's birth year matched Nechy from Skalat, so that much looked good. Charles' stone has no Hebrew so we know neither his birth name (which was surely not Charles) nor his father's name. Morris is not one of the names David had given me, but he is Moshe Zvi, so he could be Harry. Morris' father is Joel.

The next morning I paid my first visit to the Family History Library. It is truly a remarkable place. I found the five brothers' marriage certificates. Although the spellings varied, in all five the father was listed as Joel or Joe Specht and the mother was Anna or Annie Borger or Berger or something like that. Nettie's parents are Selig Degen and Ida Perlmutter and Nettie is twenty-three years old, so this matches Nechy from the Skalat birth index.

The witnesses for the marriage of Charles and Nettie are Morris and Joseph Herschhorn.

Joseph Herschhorn is also the name of the bride's father on the marriage record for Harry (aka Morris) Specht - but I had no way to tell if this was the same person as the witness or if that was significant.

But I was looking for their town of birth. Four of the brothers wrote on their marriage certificates that they were from Austria, which was pretty useless. But Jack was more specific.

The word was not 100% clear, but now after looking back at the JRI-Poland index, it is clear that he wrote Jaroslaw. This was my point in including this story in the "Every Available Record" series, before it became the story of the Specht family. There may be no point to get the marriage records of all five brothers, but in this instance only one of the five recorded the specific information that I wanted.

However it turned out not to be precise.

Jaroslaw is a town a bit northwest of Przemysl, definitely outside "Pikholz territory" but not very far. We have a Berl Pikholz of unknown age and origin who lived there in the 1930s, having married a woman from Jaroslaw. And we later found a Pikholz woman from Skalat who married a man from Jaroslaw and lived there with him until the War.

There was a bit more correspondence with David over the next few months. I even received this note from his grandmother:
Thank you very much for your report.
I believe two of my mother's brothers (Degen) migrated to Israel. I think they married and had children. I believe I have some cousins in Israel. I do not know their names.
I don't know if you have access to Israel's records. If so, would you see if you can find anything about them
Looking for long-dead Degens in Israel without knowing their first names is no simple matter, especially when you consider that most Hebrew is written without vowels, making it hard to distinguish between the less common Degen and the way more common Dagan.

It became clear to me that this family was not part of the Pikholz Project and my attention was drawn to other matters.

Then about six weeks ago, David wrote again, more than five years after our last correspondence. I decided that I was going to treat this as a client relationship rather than a potential cousin, all things considered, so nothing much happened.

But in preparing this blog, I reviewed everything and looked at all the source material with fresh eyes.

There is a list of Spechts born in a smallish town called Pruchnik, which is ten miles from Jaroslaw and fifteen from Przemysl. There I saw the children of Joel Specht and his wife Chane Borgen or Bergen, including the five sons plus several others who died in childhood. Charles is listed as Osiais (=Joshua), born in 1890. There are quite a few Specht references, including four children born in Przemysl to another couple named Joel and Chana Specht in 1790-1798. So we know that this family has been Specht for at least another hundred years back and that they were in the Przemysl area all that time.

I went back to a different set of US records and found WWI and WWII draft cards both for Morris-Harry and for Charles, the two oldest of the five brothers. (The WWII cards for what was called the Old Men's Draft.)  Charles wrote that his birth place was "Galicia" (WWI) and "Poland" (WWII) but Morris is more specific. His card for WWII says he is from "Prochnik." From the birth records we know that to be true. Here again, "every available record."

Pruchnik, Jaroslaw and Przemysl on the Polish side of the border. "Pikholz territory" on the Ukranian side.
Note that Pruchnik is in the Jaroslaw district and that explains how Jacob could reasonably have written "Jaroslaw" on his marriage record.

So clearly there is no connection between the Spechts and the Degens other than that they married one another. Except for the bit about their being second cousins. When David wrote six weeks ago, he said that although they were second cousins, they did not know that until they were in New York.

So I went a bit more into the Skalat records. As I said earlier, the birth record for Nechy Degen shows her father as Selig Degen and that her mother is Chaje Perlmutter from Budzanow, which is twenty-two miles SSW of Skalat. There is one other Perlmutter from Budzanow living in Skalat, and that would be Dwojre Herschhorn, the daughter of Joseph Herschhorn and Freude Perlmutter. This is Dora who married Charles Specht's brother Morris-Harry. As both the Degens and the Herschhorns had daughters named Nechy, my guess is that the mothers Freude and Chaje Perlmutter from Budzanow are sisters. That means that Charles and Morris-Harry married first cousins.

The Budzanow records do not show births for either of these Perlmutters, but there are many Perlmutters there. Some of them came from Skalat.

I do not know if this challenge is doable any more than I know if we can find the descendants of the Degen brothers in Israel. For now I am ordering Pruchnik records from Przemysl and my next order from Warsaw will include a few Degen and Perlmutter records from Skalat and Budzanow. Of course, I am NOT going to order Every Available Record, at least not for now. There are limits to these things.

Part 3 in a few weeks.

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Housekeeping note
I have been invited to speak at the Israel Genealogical Society's Kiryat Tiv'on branch on Sunday evening 17 March. I will be speaking in Hebrew and the subject is

Sunday, February 3, 2013


Aaron was my third cousin and the fact that we never met is all the more remarkable when you consider that his bar mitzvah was a year and a week after mine and was held in the same shul. His birthday is this week.

About ten years ago, I was corresponding with a heretofore unknown cousin on my father's father's mother's side and she gave me contact information for her second cousin Aaron and his sister, third cousins of mine. Aaron lived outside New York and the sister in Illinois.  I wrote both and Aaron replied. I learned that Aaron was a single man, who spent alot of time travelling the world. He was visually handicapped and could only correspond the old-fashioned way, by mail, in large printed letters.

Subsequently we exchanged letters two or three times a year, quite devoid of genealogical content. He would tell me about his travels and occasionally include some clippings about Israeli or Jewish issues.

About four years ago, he sent me a letter asking for assistance in planning a trip in the fall. He wanted to go with an organization called Jewish Historical Seminars on a tour of Uzbekistan, but was having trouble dealing with their computerized sign-up system. As Jewish Historical Seminars is a Jerusalem company, he wanted me to call them to help facilitate his registration. I spoke to a woman named Debbie and we worked it out satisfactorily. (I remain on their mailing list and have even participated in one of their pre-tour events - about the Jewish presence in Mexico.)

The tour group met in Tel Aviv just before Rosh Hashanah, and Aaron and I spoke about perhaps meeting there either on his way to Uzbekistan or on the way back, but it didn't work out.

On 8 October, I received an email from Debbie asking if Aaron and I were cousins. I said that we were and asked if the trip worked out well. She replied:
Aaron was wonderful on the trip and really a lovely person. But unfortunately I received an email from his friend who received emails for Aaron that he passed away. I was very upset about this since he was really someone special. Here's the email I received and apparently they are having problems contacting family.
And this is what the friend Scott had written her.
When Aaron returned from Uzbekistan he called me to say how much he enjoyed the trip and especially the other people in the group. As you know he was already planning the next one and his travels were the thing he enjoyed more than anything else. He was not yet on NY time so said we'd arrange to meet in a week or so and he'd tell me all the details of the trip. I tried calling several times and there was no answer but he has often in the past turned his phone off when he was feeling especially ill. While he had said he was in unusually good health on the trip, he tends to take a while to recover from these adventures.

Last Friday I got a call from the police saying that they had found Aaron dead in his apartment, and that he had probably died at least a week earlier. They have been trying to reach his relatives in [Illinois] or Pittsburgh but since none of his friends had contact information, they have been unsuccessful so far.
Aaron and I had been friends for over 30 years although he was outgoing and always looking for exotic experiences and I am almost the opposite. He will be greatly missed.
Apparently Scott knew that Aaron had been in touch with me, so he contacted me through Debbie. Scott told me that the police would no longer talk to him because he was not a relative, but he had learned from the "public adminstrator of the court" that they had gone through Aaron's address book and left a message at the phone of someone in Pittsburgh.

Aaron had just the sister. On his mother's side (my side) there were no first cousins. But there are Pittsburgh relatives on his father's side, none of whom I know.

I contacted Aaron's Pittsburgh second cousin - the one who had given me Aaron's name and adddress to begin with. She knew nothing and had not seen a notice in the Pittsburgh Jewish Chronicle. She also phoned Schugar's, the local Jewish funeral home, to see if they had done a burial, but they had not. (Aaron's parents are buried in Pittsburgh.)

On 18 October, a Sunday, I wrote to the County Medical Examiner to find out what had happened to the body. I was being the genealogist and just wanted to know where he was buried. She replied the next day, telling me that
Aaron [case number] "was deceased on October 2, 2009 at 3:44 PM, body is still with us. A Funeral Home has not pick him up as of yet. It was ruled a Natural Death."
That's a week later and they can say 3:44 PM exactly.

The local paper in the town where Aaron lived had nothing for me at all.

I passed on the Medical Examiner's reply to Scott and he said that the public administrator's office had asked if he (Scott) would pay for burial, otherwise "they would turn the task over Common Services for a 'common burial' " It seems that he signed on Aaron's bank account and planned to arrange for a burial in New York, unless a relative wanted to arrange for a Pittsburgh burial.

The Medical Examiner said we had until the beginning of the next week, otherwise they would dispose of the body in a common (=communal) grave.  I tried to find out Aaron's precise Jewish name, which is how I learned that his bar mitzvah was in my shul a year and a week after my own. The records of the most logical Hebrew School were off in Arizona someplace and the second most logical had undergone reorganization and claimed to have no records of students from fifty years ago. I had a photo of Aaron's father's grave so I knew that his paternal grandfather was Aharon Yaakov. I figured we could go with that when we got to that stage.

By this time, it was Friday and time was running out. I decided to send out an mail to all the relevant family members in the US to see who could contact Schugar's and deal with the Pittsburgh arrangements. It was becoming urgent.

It was my son, the rabbi in suburban Chicago who answered the call. Of course it would be. He is supposed to know how to do things like this and dealing with an unclaimed body is a very big mitzvah. I gave him contact information for Scott and the Medical Examiner and told them they would hear from them. That was the end of my week.

My son decided that the right thing to do - legally as well as halachically - would be to make another effort to contact the sister, though it was obvious by now that they were seriously estranged. I suppose there were potential issues of legal liability if we bypassed her without making an effort. He found her and called. She said she'd take care of it. By having him cremated. He asked her if this was a financial decision or some kind of principle. She said it was principle. Obviously there were issues.

Sometimes you lose.

May his soul be bound in life.

PS - The sister told my son that I am welcome to contact her and gave him her email address. Maybe someday. Maybe not.